great topic

 

I expect you'll get a lot of feedback on this one

 

yes there is something wrong with mevushal wine, it's been flash pastuerized after production and all but a few wineries, critics and expert agree that it affects the taste

as most of us know mevushal means cooked and cooked is a term wine tasters use as a negative descriptor often referring to a wine that tastes overly raisiny and a bit flat on the finish

whether everyone can tell the difference is another question ( i've been told that at some blind tastings some "experts" gave the same wine, mevushal and non-mevushal, the mevushal scored higher but the overall concensus was on every pair that the non-mevushal was better.... hey everyone can have a bad palette day which is one reason I discoun the value of ratings from individuals more so than panels)

most larger Kosher wineries that make several series of wines make only their lower entry level wines Mevushal because they don't want their higher end wine ever judged after the mevushal process

Carmel who used to make all of their wines mevushal have stopped except upon demand and even went to printing on the back of every bottle LO MEVUSHAL not mevushal

you'd be hard pressed to find anyone with a following who says they prefer their wines mevushal which means defacto they prefer it wasn't

many of the negative stereotypes long attributed to israeli and Kosher wines come from the mevushal process

that being said the process is less harsh than it used to be and it doesn't mean you can't find mevushal wines that are better than others and that are enjoyable

I tend to stay away from Mevushal wine so I am far from an expert on which ones are better and trying to be an expert on mevushal wines sounds like an exercise in masochism but you can generally steer to better entry level wines at the larger wineries and find that it's generally not affecting anyones wine much worse than anyone else's (I'd like to know if any winemakers are doing their mevushal process any differently than anyone else where there's a general agreement that it makes a big difference... I do know some claim to do it at different stages but i'm not sure anyon'e found a way to do the process that doesn't caused a perceived negative affect)

I had a discussion with a winemaker about if a Mevushal wine could get a 90 point review from a wine magazine (not that either of us put a lot of weight into the value of the point system) but we both thought there was a couple of major obstacles

first, the wineries making any of their wines mevushal tended to start with their lower end wines and few wineries have wines that score 90 points on the entry level wines (or why bother the more expensive wines)

he did mention that there may be some wines by the grape or oak or other processes in making the wine (acidity, sur lees, secondary fermentation) that hide effects of the mevushal process better than others but as in most things about wine you can't do one thing about wine without causing a series of biochemical reactions sometimes for the better often for the worse

I would love to hear from Kosher winemakers about which varietals or red or white, lower or higher alcohol, higher or lower acidity or oaked or non-oaked wines that stand up better to mevushal

I was going to start a similar tread after the discussion of pouring at the Jerusalem Wine Festival

here's another thing to consider I've been to dozens of Israeli wineries and no one has given me a mevushal wine to taste (even if they have it around they act like it's all on a slow boat to China or on top of a mountain out of reach)  I've had some winemakers been insanely generous about giving me tastings from dozens of bottle or barrels that aren't available to the public but when I ask to taste their mevushal wine they are stingy for understandable reasons

it would curious to attend mevushal tasting though I'm nt sure who would attend if you publicized it that way

David Rhodes

052-702-WINE (9463)

israeliwineguy@gmail.com

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RustyMikeRadio.com

 

The question reduces to:  "Does flash pastuerization (the mevushal process) harm wine?" And, being Jewish, who am I to resist answering - "Well, were you expecting that it would help the wine?"

Truth is much depends on two factors.

 

(a)  If the wine is flash pasteurized in large quantity tanks as is the norm, it will indeed harm the wine.  True, on tasting the wine shortly after bottling (but after bottle shock) it may be difficult to recognize the differences between a mevushal and non-mevushal version of the same wine.  On the other hand, give that wine four-six months in the bottle and indeed one can recognize the differences, the advantage always going to the non-mevushal wine. This is quite simply because the process literallly robs the wine of many of its most vital essences and so impacts on the wine that it develops a "cooked" and not at all tempting overlay.  More than that, the longer the mevushal wine ages (note that I am not using the word "develop") the more marked and the more negative will be those overlays.

(b) On the other hand if the must (the fresh juice of the grapes) is flash pasteurized either by passing through a small super-heated section of piping or even if the must itself is flash pasteurized in small quantities before fermentation has begun, no harm is done to the wine.  The problem that comes in here is not one of winemaking but of various rabbinical authorities, some of whom insist that flash pasteurizing the must is not adequate.

Indeed, I have done some experimentation with this.  Thanks to Carmel and Barkan here in Israel several years ago I was given samples of same wines that were produced in both mevushal and non-mevushal editions.  I was given enough samples that I could taste them shortly after bottling, four months later, eight months later and then a year later.  With wines just bottled, I "guessed" with only 50% accuracy as to which wines were or were not mevushal.  After four months eight months and a year, there was no guesswork involved and in every case I identified the mevushal wines as inferior. 

Much also depends on the producer and precisely how modern their equipment is.  Indeed, no winery in Israel submits their upper-series wines to the flash-pasteurization process today, reserving that process largely for lower-level wines destined for caterers and restaurants both locally and abroad.  Turning to two wineries in the United States - HaGafen and Herzog.  I believe all of HaGafen's wines are mevushal.  I am not privy to precisely how winemaker Ernie Weir does this but I can say quite comfortably that his wines, often attaining excellence, do not suffer at all from the process.  With regard to Herzog, even some of their very upper-level wines are mevushal.  The major difference between those and the non-mevushal upper-level wines is simply that the mevushal wines do not have as long a cellaring potential.

Not all agree with me in my belief that traditional flash-pasteurization will harm most wines. One example -  Shiki Rauchberger (for whom I have great respect even though we disagree on this point), who is the senior winemaker at Teperberg Winery, actually wrote his UCDavis thesis on how flash-pasteurization can be beneficial to the quality of many wines.

As to the issue of whether there is an actual necessity to flash pasteurize wines because of ritual or religious belief - I remain firmly opposed to such a need.  I cannot help but believe that there are other, far more common-sense and less offensive (to some) methods for dealing with kosher wines.  But that is another story for another thread altogether....

Best

Rogov

 

 

OK, not an expert here, but my layman view of mevushal vs. non-mevushal is this: No, mevushaling is not good for the wine, but there are many factors and winemaking processes above mevushal impacting how good the finished wine will be.  Basically, with modern winemaking, mevushal alone is not enough to make a good wine turn bad.  So it's best to keep an open mind I think.  More important than mevushal/non-mevushal is, were the grapes and winemaking good?  If yes, then it will be a good wine even if it is mevushal.

 

So when I'm trying to match people with the wine I think they're looking for, I try and keep a blind eye to mevushal status.  In some cases a non-mevushal wine will do the trick, but in other cases a mevushal wine really will be the best.  A real world example is a while back we carried two kosher Chianti's at nearly identical price points: Toscaleoni and Borgo Reale.  The difference was Toscaleoni was non-mevushal, Borgo Reale mevushal.  Though it lost out on big event sales where a mevushal wine is needed, I think Toscaleoni also won a lot of sales for being non-mevushal.  But I really think the Borgo Reale was a better wine, despite being mevushal (even though I believe Rogov's scores disagree with this).

 

OK, but to balance that defense of mevushal wines, I want to share a quick anecdote.  The rep selling us the new kosher Cote du Rhone, Le Mourre de L'Isle (non-mevushal), is very happy with the success of this wine, but I feel like he is dying to get a mevushal kosher wine in his portfolio so that he can go around selling it to all the caterers.  Lamenting this, he mentioned that the winemaker of Le Mourre de L'Isle refused to make a his wine mevushal.  When I hear something like this about a winemaker I take it as a good sign.

 

 

 

Scott, Hi.....

 

Even when I entertain guests, either at home or at restaurants, who keep kosher and to whom such issues might be important, I always bring non-mevushal wine.  I also do this when I lead wine tastings at which there might be some quite observant people.  My solution to any problem is quite simple - asking that person if they object to my opening and pouring and if they do to ask if they will do the honor of opening and pouring for the table.  In every case that I have met that has led to a good and warm feeling on the part of all.

As to saying "never", do keep in mind that the wines of several major producers of truly fine wines in the Chateauneuf and Rhone areas flash pasteurize the must (before fermentatio) beliieving it to be good for the wine.   

Also - perhaps a bit too general to say that good grapes and good winemaking may allow the flash-pasteurization to make good wine.  I have never seen a 50,000 liter tank in which wine is flash pasteurized that is capable of turning out truly excellent wine.

 

Best

Rogov

 

Best

Rogov

 

Although my gut feeling has always been that wine should not be heated (except by our nearest star), I do agree with Scott that there is a respectable place for it on wine shop shelves.

Now, how about producers like Louis Latour which flash pasteurise  all of their red wines at 72°C for 2-3 seconds in the final production stage. They claim that the process not only "prevents bacterial spoilage, increases the stability of the wine and protects the wine's colour and aroma" but that it also "kills the bacteria that have already performed their useful tasks and leaves only the healthy bacteria that contribute to the wine's fine ageing." They say that "this process also permits a soft filtration and, most importantly, a minimal addition of sulphur dioxide (30 mg/l where 160 mg/l is permitted)." 

Rogov,

    I agree with you, and given the choice of mevushal or not-mevushal, absolutely I prefer to see a wine non-mevushal.  But there are a few niches where a mevushal wine is the best.  This is not to say at all that the process of mevushal makes them better, it really speaks more to what wines are currently available on the market.  But like I said I won't disqualify a wine just because it's mevushal.  For example, if someone says, "I want to try your finest Sauvignon Blancs", I won't hesitate to suggest Hagafen and Goose Bay Sauvignon Blanc even though they are both mevushal.  I would recommend them because they are good wines.

there's a few diiferent points getting mixed up here

 

yes, there is a market for mevushal wine

 

most winemakers wish there wasn't

 

most only make it because as a kosher winery it's an extension of appealing to certain religious consumers demand

it is controversal when it's needed or required even here in Israel

different Rabbi have different rules

Judaism is one of the least organized organized religions so as a failsafe so every one is covered it's used at some events where it might not be required

but to say it's unnecessary today is disrepsectful of those who believe it is as much as saying as that kosher wine in general has no reason for exisitng

what % of non-kosher wineries in the world flash pateurize their wines... I'm guessing less than 1/10 of 1% so it's ot like the jury is out on this question, it's almost universally agreed it isn't a process that allow for making a great wine BUT you can make better mevushal wines than others and maybe as Rogov suggests drinking them younger might help mitigate the issue and as many of the best wines are meant to be aged the lack of aging potential for mevushal wines should be enough of an argument though much more evidence exists

love the debate but it's a bit inane since I never knew a soul to ask for mevushal because he thought it tasted better than the non-mevushal but the contrary is quite common.. it's a fiarly general rue in winemaking that many of the best winemakers will try to do as little as possible to deliver a wine to market, the more you tinker with this highly volatile organic product the more you tempt fate something will go wrong more than right so even if tended to be as neutral a process as some might hope just adding another stage of handling the wine or tinkering with the wine as it's processed opens up bio-chemical reactions wine makers just as well would avoid if they had their druthers.

As stated previously, Carmel can speak to this issue better than anyone with their lo mevushal on some back labels now

Perhaps there is a certain religious stigma attached to meshuvals .......since, as far as I can understand it, the process is similar to that done successfully at Latour, which we all know is one of the world's greatest producers (see earlier entry).

...and, drinking young is not always a bad thing...at least Beaujolaisans wouldn't think so.

 

 

 

David, Hi…

You write: "… to say it's unnecessary today is disrepsectful of those who believe it is as much as saying as that kosher wine in general has no reason for exisitng".  

That there is a valid reason for making kosher wine is obvious and those who keep kashrut are fully entitled to have access to such wines.  On the other hand wine that is mevushal is no more kosher than wine that is not.  The only reason people drink mevushal wines is the fear that the wine will be contaminated by a non-Sabbath observant Jew, a non-Jew or, heaven forbid, a pagan worshipper.  As I have said, the solution to that is quite simple: At every table at which kosher wine is served it should be brought to the table unopened and those at the table asked if they want the staff to open and pour or if they would prefer to do it themselves.  If they choose to do it themselves the staff is then instructed that under no circumstances are they to touch the wine bottle or glasses until clearing the table.  If one of the staff violates that simple rule, a fresh unopened bottle should be given the table with no charge.  Quite simple and all religious demands are met with neither the most observant nor non-observant (or even the pagan worshipper if there is one present) can possibly offended.   Frankly, any restaurant or caterer incapable of following this order of things should close his/her doors and go out of business.

 

 

Dr Dog….

You write: …. "as far as I can understand it, the process is similar to that done successfully at Latour, which we all know is one of the world's greatest producers".  I would agree with you if you had written if the process is similar".  Alas, it is not.  Latour's flash pasteurization takes place in heated sections of stainless steel pipes while the wine is flowing through and thus lasts only a few seconds.  In most kosher wineries the process takes place in stainless steel tanks of anywhere from 20,000-70.000 liters and there is no possible way that the process can be "flash".

 

You also say that "... drinking young is not always a bad thing...at least Beaujolaisans wouldn't think so" Agreed that drinking young wines can be a pleasure, but not when those wines are full-bodied and firmly tannic and need time in the bottle to mature (some of the best 2005 Bordeaux reds will not be fully ready for drinkiing for another 15-20 years and some will remain highly drinkable until 2065-2070).  Mevushal wines simply will not make it that long.   With young, fresh wines such as Beaujolais, Beaujolais Villages or simple Cotes du Rhone, I agree that these wines are best from release and then for 1 – 2 years after the harvest but even the Cru Beaujolais wines can do nicely for 5 – 9 or more years.  And those are wines made from Gamay grapes – medium-bodied, softly tannic, generously fruity at release.

 

I await for someone to give me any valid reason for making any kosher wine mevushal.  Alas the only two that I can come up with is that some may be truly terrified of pagans and in God's own words to the effect that at least some of us are "a hard-headed people".   

Best

Rogov

 

Very informative and amusing. Thank you, Rogov.

Dog

David, Dan and Scott,

I have recently been in touch with Ernie Weir at HaGafen concerning meshuvals. He told me that all of their wines are flash pasteurized at 185°F and cooled to 50°F. Their man, Rabbi Reuven Nathanson,  approximated  30-45 seconds in the cooker. He said the winery uses a plate and frame pasteurizer, not a tube-in-tube or tube-in-shell pasteurizer. He also said that they do not use monster vat pasteurization, adding that it is more common for grape juice and bulk wines (used as an ingredient - not for drinking).

He also told me that "tests done in Israel indicate that when done properly flash pasteurization will not adversely effect taste or color" and that some non-kosher  wineries in California have started pasteurizing white wines "because they like how it blends the flavors well and has better long term stability."

Hmmmm...

Best,

Dog

 

 

 

David,

You said, "I would love to hear from Kosher winemakers about which varietals or red or white, lower or higher alcohol, higher or lower acidity or oaked or non-oaked wines that stand up better to mevushal." So I posed the question to Ernie Weir at Hagafen. His response was as follows:

"Based on my experience over the last 15 years, I can make no distinction of age worthiness or durability between types of wines.  I certainly also maintain, as do others, that there is no degradation of quality due to flash pasteurization and perhaps improvement of quality.  Sorry I cannot add grist to the mill of this discussion since I do not find it germane any longer due to vast technology improvements.  I actually find the topic outdated."

Maybe it is. Or, perhaps he would rather not commit. Are we hearing the politics of winemaking? ...or  should we just take him at his word.

DD

 

Considering that (a)  Ernie Weir's wines (HaGafen) are among the very best kosher wines made anywhere; (b)  they compete comfortably with fine wines kosher or non-kosher; and (c) that his wines are mevushal, I think we can accept as a fact that in some cases the process, depending on how it is carried out, is not at all harmful.  The key phrase in the preceding sentence is "in some cases".

 

Best

Rogov

by far it is the exception and not the rule and without tasting hagefen without it going through the process who's to say it didn't harm the wine

That's a very relevant point, David. Too bad we couldn't do a taste test processed both ways...... now, and five years from now.

 

 

David, Hi.....

 

That's almost like my asking you to respond only in either Yes or No.  "Have you stopped beating your mother yet?"

 

Truth is that I have followed a great many of Ernie Weir's wines from their youth to their maturity and have only very, very rarely been let down in my projected drinking windows.  Nor have I found the typical "cooked" aromas or flavors in his wines. 

 

Best

Rogov

 

 

I know I am getting into this conversation late, but I have a very strong opinion on mevushal wines. First, it really bothers me that mevushal has a terrible connotation to it. I see mevushal as just another step in the winemaking process. Some winemakers decide to do it, and others don't. Some winemakers are great at performing this process, others are not. A wine that is designated as mevushal is not necessarily a bad wine, or inferior to a non mevushal wine. Hagafen is a great example of a mevushal wine that is far superior to most non mevushal wines.

I have talked to too many customers that refuse to purchase mevushal wines just because they are so convinced that every mevushal wine is bad. Yes it is true that if you perform the mevushul process the wrong way it will harm the wine, but if you put effort into this process like Hagafen does, then it has no effect.

If I haven't made it clear enough, just because a wine is mevushal doesn't make it any less of a wine than a non mevushal wine. Each wine should be judged by its taste and not what is written on the bottle.

 

Dan, Hi.....

 

How nice.  Our first disagreement in public. 

Most people scoff at mevushal wines because they have historically been and continue to be mediocre in quality ...perhaps acceptable or even good on release but then quickly fading and taking on cooked/stewed aromas and flavors within a few months after bottling and then fading rather quicklly in the bottle.  True, there have been and continue to be some exceptions but those are indeed exceptions.  I'm quite sure that someone at sometime in some place made a fine wine from Concord grapes.  Only problem is that in many years of tasting and writing about wines, I have never tasted one. 

As to mevushal in the traditional manner, let us never forget that even in the eyes of the sages, wine that is mevushal is "no longer wine".  Wine - yes.  Kosher wine - indeed.  Good kosher wine - only with a few notable exceptions. 

 

And one parting shot - If it's all that easy as you imply why have all of the major wineries of Israel stopped producing mevushal wines - in some cases completely and in some cases keeping mevushal wines only for their lowest-level series?

Best

Rogov

 

 

 

 

One more observation: Maybe we should be more specific when categorizing our likes and dislikes concerning meshuvals. There seems to be validity to basically each arguement stated above IF one considers the status of the wine.  Dan thinks there are a lot of  very nice meshuvals, Scott sees a selling end niche for them,  David tends to agree with Rogov, who makes it quite clear that the number of "great" meshuvals nears nonexistent. Nonetheless, Rogov has given a lot of descent scores to meshuvals....Recanati, Herzog, Noah, Tabor, Tishbi, Goose Bay, Hagafen, Dalton, even Tierre Salvaje. By descent I mean averaging around 86 in point ratings. Certainly there are few that  hit or pass the 90 mark....but doesn't that apply to the general market too? So, perhaps we may conclude that while there are not many "great" meshuvals there is certainly an ample supply of  pleasing ones. Good wines are the staple of the wine selling industry. Most buyers  can not afford great wines and, while they may buy one on occasion, are more likely looking for a nice wine in the $10-$20 range.

i like how doctordog mixed decent with descent... hmmn maybe Freudian?  (hey, I'm a prince of typos myself but i thought it was a funny miscue)

look as wine writers one thing we can do as a public service is to state generalalites and notable exceptions

for instance I remember while attending wine school how we were told most pinot grigio was fairly insepid and that the fancier the bottle typically the lamer the wine

yet it was also pointed out that in Alsace Pinot Gris (the same grape) was a fairly special offering (CA is also making some notable Pinot Grigio)

so as with most generalities, statements about Mevushal wines begs contention but I wouldn't jump in a tank of Great White sharks because a few people found them occasoinally safe to swim with I would accept the conventional wisdom because there are plenty of other places to swim as I can easily avoid drinking mevushal wines because I don't have any intention of needing to be an expert on mevushal wines and there are plenty of non-mevushal Israeli wines for me to talk about and mevushals wines here have much less influence on the marketplace than they used to or maybe exists in the Diaspora.

I've never heard a wineamaker in Israel brag that they make the best mevushal wine, any takers?

I think a similar paradigm might be a California wine writer who would gladly go his whole career without having to write about or review White Zinfandel wines (Yes, I've heard wine snobs say it's not really wine) although White Zinfandel has a huge place in the American marketplace (it almost destroed the demand for higher quality roses in the USA with Roses just making a recent upswing)... just like how Carmel prints lo mevushal on the label of many wines to distance it from it's past

some wineries in CA known for quality red  Zinfandel wines such as scrumptios Rosenblum vineyards (I'm no relation to their Rhodes Vineyards by the way) when they do make a Rose chhose something other than Zinfandel, I thoroughly enjoyed their Grenache rose so much so that we made a Grenache Blanc de Noir that went over very well in San Diego County. I called myself the father of that wine, I conceived that wine at our winery and someone else labored on it for 9 months.

Ya, funny about the word "decent," David. Believe me, I understand where you and Rogov are coming from....as well as Scott and Dan's viewpoint.

I am by no means a meshuval devotee but thought it would be an interesting topic of discussation. Along the way I did contact Phil Jones at Goose Bay...where the meshuvals received some nice scores from Rogov. They also use a plate and frame heat exchanger that can run about 5000 L per hour at the required temperatures. Here's what he had to say: 

• "There is no doubt that flash pasteurising can improve aromatic white wines...most of the time. It appears to prematurely age reds, and that can be good or bad depending on the variety.
  It is impossible for us to talk about the technicalities as we do not do any research that can be qualified. The main reason we use pasteurisation is to have a marketing opportunity in selling the wine as meshuval.
  When we pasteurise a red wine we have the option of not using 0.6 micron filtration at bottling as we should have killed most organisms that would cause problems in wine. That is a bonus...but not one that probably offsets the "potential" negative effects of pasteurisation.
• Is it good or bad? We have never had a wine seriously hurt by it. Some appear improved, others not.
• Do pasteurised wines have a shorter life? Possibly, but I don't believe by much. If you pasteurised a very well balanced wine I believe it would not effect it much."

Pretty self-explanatory.... a straightforward, honest, and ever so revealing analysis.

a pretty sel serving explanation analysis if you ask me

the point about filtration is curiious since I'm told that most winemakers will use a certain level filtration no matter their philosophy on filtration to eliminate any chance of bugs or bug parts being in the wine. On whites even more than reds for whites can show visual flaws so much easier than a red. A lot of stuff can be hidden by a dense tannic red wine. At the San Diego winery I worked at I used to call white wines "Little Princesses" because they require so much more attention to detail even more than reds.

Well it seems that mevushal vs. non-mevushal is almost as controversial as healthcare reform

 

Dr. Dog, I'm a bit of a skeptic on the issue of mevushal improvement, BUT, it did make me think of this passage a friend sent me from Proust (not that I have ever attempted to read Proust).  The passage references stewed fruit juice, which the author seems to think unleashes this incredible fruitiness from the juice.  Relevant?  I dunno, but here's the passage:

"Because I managed to procure, in addition to the orangeade, a carafe of stewed cherry or pear juice, people marveled at the weight I carried.  It was because of this that I took a dislike to the Prince d'Agrigente, who, like all people lacking in imagination but not in acquisitiveness, show great surprise at what you happen to be drinking and ask if they may taste a little of it themselves.  The result of this was that, on all of these occasions, M. d'Agreigente, by reducing my ration, spoiled my enjoyment.  For this fruit juice is never served in sufficient quantities to quench the thirst.  There is nothing so easy to drink as this color of fruit, transmuted into a flavor, and the fruit, when stewed in this way, seems to have reverted to the time when it was blossom.  With its crimson flush like an orchard in springtime, or else colorless and cool like the breeze beneath the fruit trees, the juice can be sniffed, its every drop admired, and M. d'Agrigente prevented me, regularly, from enjoying it to the full."-511 Guermantes Way

Proust hits it right on the nail - the liquids from fruit compote can be exquisite. What Proust mentions in another of his works is that at times there is added joy by adding a bit of sweet cream to the liquids. The question is whether you want your wine to taste like fruit compote or would you prefer wine? And would you want your wine with a bit of parve sweet cream added in "just for fun". On that note having said all that I have to say about the issue, I am now officially out of this conversation. Best Rogov

well if you added sweet cream then you could call it "Moo You Shall" or I guess Moo Vou Shall if it's French...

i agree with Rogov that to this discuss this any further is sort of like beating a dead horse

 

sorry to have pun-ished you

 

Agreed....(not that you've pun-ished us but that this horse is dead).

Thanks for all the input, guys, to my original question. It has been a lot of fun.

Adios.