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Are old vines good or bad?
Are old vines good or bad?
Thu, 08/06/2009 - 9:40am | Report Abuse
I was reading Rogovs review of the Barkan Carignan (http://www.mykerem.com/articles/two-new-releases-barkan-both-excellent-k) and I noticed that the wine was made from 20 year old vines, which would mean that they were planted in 1987. This was just the beginning of the wine revolution in Israel and I doubt the vines were cared for like they should have been, especially because it was carignan and in those days were destined for the cheapest of wines.
This got me wondering if this has an effect on the quality of grapes the vines grow today? Can you rehabilitate a vineyard that has been neglected? Is this a common problem that winemakers have to face today? Do they typically uproot the vines or do they try to rehabilitate them?
Re: Are old vines good or bad?
Thu, 08/06/2009 - 3:32pm | Report Abuse
Dan, Hi....
Interesting issue. Many vintners and winemakers learned long ago that some of the best wines come from vines that have had to "suffer". That is to say, in weak soil, under strenuous weather conditions and whose roots have had to explore far and wide to find appropriate water and nourishment, in vineyards that have been badly neglected and even overgrown.
Here in Israel that has proven true especially with vineyards containing Petite Sirah and Carignan. Winemakers sometimes actually rejoice when discovering a vineyard that has gone completely untended for 10, 20 or more years. If I were Confucious, I would write that "He who uproots a long neglected vineyard without first tasting the grapes has something akin to a donkey with his left rear hoof in its mouth"
For better or worse, I am not Confucious.
Best and Chuckling
Rogov
Best
Rogov
Username : Daniel Rogov
Forum Posts : 32
Location : Israel
Re: Are old vines good or bad?
Fri, 08/07/2009 - 7:06am | Report Abuse
Interesting topic indeed. I was just talking with a couple of wine makers in Israel, and they are talking about this year (2009), and how hot it is. Normally, they let the vines run via dry farming (during the growing season). But they do say that they do not like vines to be stressed. They like vines to be hungry, but stressed vines tend to create grapes that are closed in a way. The sugars are locked in the and not moving in the grape. Truly, I am not sure what that actually means. The heat here in Israel this year is causing issues, that may be reminiscent to 2002, and is stressing the vines now.
Stress is fine and older vines have been stressed, but I thought the older vines get cranky and old and are not as prolific as they may be in their younger days, and so produce tighter, more rich grapes.
Dr. Rogov, do you need older vines for Cabernet, Chardonnay, etc. Or only on the kind of vines (Carignan, Zinfandel, and Petit Sirah) that are so prolific that without age, they need crazy amount of viticulture effort to minimize their yield and maximize their flavors and quality?
David
Username : David Raccah
Forum Posts : 23
Location : United States
Re: Are old vines good or bad?
Fri, 08/07/2009 - 8:08am | Report Abuse
David, Hi...
One has to keep in mind that vines, like wines and people, have a finite life-span and that not all vine varieties will age equally. As always, a combination of genetics and environment.
Amongst best grapes for old vines (vieilles vignes) are: Pinot Noir (Burgundy); nearly all of the varieties used in Chateauneuf-du-Pape (Rhone); Syrah (Cornas), Chardonnay (Chablis specifically); Riesling (Alsace).
As to Cabernet Sauvignon, about the only ones I know using true vieilles vignes are a few wineries in Chile and that without notable results.
Username : Daniel Rogov
Forum Posts : 32
Location : Israel
Re: Are old vines good or bad?
Sat, 08/08/2009 - 12:39pm | Report Abuse
The idea of finding the unfulfilled potential in old vine vineyards is what changed the perception of Priorat in Spain and areas of the Languedoc. The vineyards existed long before the vines were used for quality.
As far as Israel is concerned, Carmel's old vine vineyards of Carignan in the Zichron Ya'acov area and Petite Sirah in the Judean Hills were 6-8 years ago used for producing grape juice and kiddush wine. Carmel has pioneered the revival of Carignan & Petite Sirah in Israel by indentifying the correct vineyards, training the grower to prune & manage the vineyard effectively, and by drastically reducing yields.
These vineyards, which used to produce 4 tons per dunam, now yield only 0.3 tons per dunam. They are 35 to 40 years old. The vines are grown in the goblet or bush style. However with a winery looking for quality, a vineyard owner prepared to make major changes in search for quality and the existing potential of the vineyard, the results can be good.
In my opinion the Appellation Old Vines Carignan, Zichron Ya'acov (Shomron Region) and Appellation Old Vines Petite Sirah, Judean Hills are examples of what can be done with a vineyard that was previously extremely productive in terms of quantity but totally unproductive concerning quality.
Adam Montefiore
Username : Adam Montefiore
Forum Posts : 4
Location : Israel
Re: Are old vines good or bad?
Sat, 08/08/2009 - 1:14pm | Report Abuse
Indeed Mr. Montefiore,
I love the Petit Sirah vintages and really like the Carignan as well. They are wines that are deep and brooding and show thier viticulture on their sleeves. There are even winemakers that I spoke with recently that are desiring to plant vineyards in the bush style of South Africa to plant Petit Verdot. Are you saying that the current Carignan and Petit Sirah vines are also in bush style? That is very cool. I would have thought that the PS and carignan grapes need to have the sunlight on them constantly to keep their rich tannins?
Username : David Raccah
Forum Posts : 23
Location : United States