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Do Kosher Wines Have a Higher Incidence of Corkage?
Do Kosher Wines Have a Higher Incidence of Corkage?
Sun, 07/19/2009 - 2:39pm | Report Abuse
I've heard it asserted a few times that kosher wines have a higher rate than non-kosher. What does everybody think?
While I certainly have come across my share of corked kosher wines, I haven't been convinced yet that it's a higher rate than non-kosher. I've noticed though that the kosher wines almost always have custom corks, so maybe something about the wineries having to get a separate batch of corks for the kosher wines increases the danger of TCA contamination?
Re: Do Kosher Wines Have a Higher Incidence of Corkage?
Tue, 07/21/2009 - 5:41am | Report Abuse
I've never heard that kosher wines have a higher rate of corkage than non-kosher. I don't see a logical reason why this would be the case. There is no such thing as kosher corks, they are produced in the same way as regular corks, they just might have different print on the cork.
Can we get any winemakers to chime in?
Username : Dan
Forum Posts : 44
Location : United States
Re: Do Kosher Wines Have a Higher Incidence of Corkage?
Tue, 07/21/2009 - 6:05am | Report Abuse
TCA in wine can come from two sources. one, and the most common one, is from natural corks. and second from usage of chlorine based sanitizers in the winery (this is the reason we, at Recanati stopped using chlorine as sanitizer in the winery). As you can realize there is nothing to do with winery being Kosher or not. it is most likely choise of cheap or bad batch of corks. Expensive wine or cheap it can happend to everyone.
Gil
Username : Gil S
Forum Posts : 4
Location : Israel
Re: Do Kosher Wines Have a Higher Incidence of Corkage?
Tue, 07/21/2009 - 9:29am | Report Abuse
Corks are the same in both the kosher and non kosher world. My personal experience is that the number of corky wines is no higher in kosher wines and I have never heard this before from anywhere in the market.
At Carmel we have recently switched our Appellation wines to the Diam cork, resulting in a far reduced problems.
At the same time, we are learning and continuing to experiment with different closures. We are checking out screw caps with our Young Selected wines and synthetic corks with our Selected label.
Adam Montefiore (Carmel Winery)
PS. Congratulations on your great new site Dan and good luck with it.
Username : adam
Forum Posts : 2
Location : Israel
Re: Do Kosher Wines Have a Higher Incidence of Corkage?
Tue, 07/21/2009 - 12:28pm | Report Abuse
Adam, thanks for the info. Remind me, Diam corks are the ones that are composite corks made from natural cork that have been treated to eliminate TCA?.
As far as marketing the wines, what is your view of the screw-cap question, do you think Carmel's customers would dislike seeing a screw-cap on a higher end wine like Private Collection or even Appellation? Is there a fear the market would reject them?
Believe or not, I have heard the sentiment about higher rates of corkage with kosher wines more than a few times, from people in and out of the industry...doesn't make it true, of course...but it's a sentiment that's out there. Obviously could just be perception though.
Username : Scott Shu
Forum Posts : 43
Location : United States
Re: Do Kosher Wines Have a Higher Incidence of Corkage?
Tue, 07/21/2009 - 12:33pm | Report Abuse
Gil, thank you. One customer who is a serious collector told me that he believes the root of the problem is cheap corks, like you say. That in some cases the producers aren't springing for the more expensive corks and thats why he thinks he gets more corked wines.
Scott
Username : Scott Shu
Forum Posts : 43
Location : United States
Re: Do Kosher Wines Have a Higher Incidence of Corkage?
Wed, 07/22/2009 - 12:07am | Report Abuse
Hi Scott
The choice of which cork to use for which wine is definately economicaly driven. There are lots of price level (thus quality levels) in natural corks and according to the target price of the wine will derived all the production materials, from grapes to corks. this is the reason, as Adam said many producers are moving to alternative closures in lower level wines.
Gil
Username : Gil S
Forum Posts : 4
Location : Israel
Re: Do Kosher Wines Have a Higher Incidence of Corkage?
Wed, 07/22/2009 - 7:53am | Report Abuse
Hi Scott,
Here is my 5¢ worth. I have made my opinions on corks fairly clear here on my blog: http://www.dalton-winery.com/content/dynamic-web-content.aspx?contid=58
Statistically, I don't believe that there should be any difference between the levels of TCA in kosher and non-kosher wines. I believe that corks suppliers treat every section of the market equally poorly.
The assertion seems a little bit of a catchall statement whilst the reality is far from being straightforward.
Firstly, we need to assume that the people making the assertion are actually aware of what corky wine smells like. I have heard the term "corked wine" cover a multitude of sins, including bits of cork floating in wine, none of which have anything to do with TCA. This makes it very difficult to achieve a standardised frame of reference. Conversely I have had arguments with wine professionals who could not detect obvious levels of TCA.
Secondly, the assertion is also only valid if those making it drink 50% kosher wines and 50% non-kosher wines.
Thirdly the wines should be compared at similar price points as, generally, better wines get better corks.
Having said all of that I do think that there is a possible problem when it comes to wines from Israel. The Israeli market is very small and it is serviced by a handful of suppliers.
I know from first hand experience that one of those suppliers is absolutely rubbish, we suffered from levels of TCA that were off the charts, even with their most expensive corks. We stopped using them, however other wineries in Israel continue to use their products and will continue suffer from elevated rates of TCA in their wines.
Scott, if your customers really want wines that are not corky then they should stop buying wines with natural cork in them.
Best
Alex
Username : alex
Forum Posts : 4
Location : Israel
Re: Do Kosher Wines Have a Higher Incidence of Corkage?
Thu, 07/23/2009 - 7:14pm | Report Abuse
Hello Scott and guys,
There are two things here.
1) Do Kosher wines have a higher percentage of bad bottles (oxidized or DOA)?
2) Do Kosher wines have a higher proportion of "corked"/TCA bottles?
From the little I know of non-kosher bottles, I do NOT think that Kosher wines have a higher percentage of corked/TCA bottles. Just not very logical anyway, because many of the Kosher wineries have brand new wineries and TCA is checked for constantly in them.
As of the question about DOA or oxidized bottles, again, I have no real data. However, if someone told you that Kosher Wines have a higher percentage of corked/TCA bottle. I think they were talking about oxidized or DOA bottles, and they mistakenly thought it was TCA. To that point, I will say that there are MANY vendors who will gladly sell oxidized and/or compromised bottles of kosher wines, that were shipped during inopportune times in the season. The shipments of kosher wines from out of the winery, which is out of the country (Israel, France, etc) to the wine merchant or distributor, can occur at really stupid times. I heard once that Yarden shipped a bunch of El Rom and Ortal cases during the summer, which has to be wrong.
Anyway, if there is a thing to this concern of your friend's I think, that this would be the issue. Poor temperature and environment control of bottles once they leave the winery. To that I can say that I have been victim many times, and because I work with reputable wine merchants, I have not been hurt.
Best Wishes,
David
Username : David Raccah
Forum Posts : 23
Location : United States