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Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Tue, 07/21/2009 - 10:20am | Report Abuse
Shmitah is the Jewish law that forbids Jews in Israel from using their land every 7th year. Of course in today's world this isn't possible so the rabbis have made many ammendments to this law. Interestingly, the rabbis in Israel all agree that if you follow certain rules you can still make the wines kosher and consumable by all Jews. In America however, many rabbis do not follow by this. You will notice that no 2008 vintage wines made in Israel have an OU on them, but they do have the certification of Israeli rabbis.
I'm interested to know what most people follow. Will you drink shmitah wines? Does it matter to you? Have you ever heard of shmitah? I want to hear your opinion.
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Thu, 07/23/2009 - 8:29pm | Report Abuse
As we spoke Dan, this is a very complicated topic. There are so many issues that come to bear on this topic. However, I have been of the opinion, that if the wine was not bottled on the shmitah year, but rather was in a barrel or in cold storage (NOT BOTTLED), than when the bottling occurs, we are free to enjoy it here in the USA. Otherwise, we would have to make the wine "hefker" (make it unowned - which I truly doubt anyone does correctly), which really complicates the matter.
Because the winery holds the wine in their premises and has no intention of selling it during the shmitah year, than the "loopholes" that wineries use, are acceptable.
That said, NO Kosher authority in America will go along with this at all. They will not accept the heter michira (which is a horrible loophole - where they sell the grapes to a non-jew like we do with leavened bread before passover). This is a clear loophole, around the sacred law of shmitah and so most American and even Israeli rabbinical authorities will ignore it. However, there is the newer and more progressive loophole called Oztar Beit Din is more accepted, but it is really a loophole, that has existed for a long time.
As usual WikiPedia does a great job discussing this topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmita. The topic in particular to wine for this past shmitah is brought up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmita#Shmita_2007-2008.
The part that I think is broken with the wineries and what they do incorrectly, is that even with the otzar beit din, the fruit/wine CANNOT be sold for PROFIT!! Not can they be shipped out of the country. The oztar beit din fixes the selling and the shipping (to some extent), but NOT the selling for profit and one that I truly do not understand.
In my opinion, I will drink this year's wine, if it is stored in the winery, which alleviates the shipping issue.
David
Username : David Raccah
Forum Posts : 23
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Thu, 07/23/2009 - 8:48pm | Report Abuse
Let me add on a few things:
1) PLEASE listen to this podcast - it is totally awesome, but it requires that you understand torah concepts: http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/727996/Rabbi_Yuval_Cherlow/T...
2) This is a set of information from the VAAD in Seattle: http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:erPVygCcZuYJ:www.seattlevaad.org/up...
As was previously announced, some Israeli wines produced in 2008 during the Shmita year have appeared in the Seattle area. While it is generally recommended to avoid these wines (as well as all Shmita produce), for those who may have already purchased the wine we offer the following guidelines if you choose to use the wine:
1. The label must state "Otzer Beis Din" which will probably be written in Hebrew.
2. The wine may only be drunk. It cannot be used for another purpose.
3. Shmita wines must be totally consumed by people. The wine cannot be wasted or poured out.
4. Shmita wine should not be used for Havdala, as one cannot put out the candle in the wine.
5. The wine can be consumed in kiddush or with a meal, but must be totally consumed - none can be wasted.
6. Shmita wine must be finished before Pesach 5769 (coming up in April 2009).
So again! With Oztar Beit Din, buying wine is less problematic, but you MUST follow the guidelines listed above. As the wine is holy and must be treated in a special way. Please note that #6 above does not apply to wine that was held in the winery and not bottles during 2008. Finally, some wines grown in the golan and close to Eilat, have no concern, as they are not really part of Israel :-)
David
Username : David Raccah
Forum Posts : 23
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Fri, 07/24/2009 - 9:17am | Report Abuse
That is a fantastic response. How do you know if the winery held the wine until 2009? Do you personally email the wineries or does the "Otzer Beis Din" certification imply this?
Username : Dan
Forum Posts : 44
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Tue, 07/28/2009 - 3:23pm | Report Abuse
Hi David,
Re: Guidelines #2-#4 - A #7 and #8 probably should be specifically added that a product of the blessing "Bore' P'ri HaGa/efen" should not be given to young children who cannot be careful enough to take responsibility for carefully handling it or any other Qedushat Sh'vii't produce. Furthermore, a Sh'mittah product of the blessing "Bore' Pri HaGa/efen" cannot be given for the Brit Milah for/to the newborn son.
Best wishes,
E.Y.
Username : exabgen
Forum Posts : 25
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Tue, 07/28/2009 - 3:48pm | Report Abuse
bsd
Hi David,
There is a correction to the understanding that Heter Mechira wine is that of grapes that are sold to non-Jews - Heter Mechira wine comes from grapes that from Eretz Israel land (the correction being that the land, not the produce was sold) that was sold to non-Jewish ownership for the Sh'mittah year; the sale of Eretz Israel in such a way is a transgression of a negative Mitzvah DeOraita. This is a much more serious issue than the nonetheless transgression, but of directly selling, buying, and even in planting on Eretz Israel during the Seventh Year, as Sh'mittah became a Mitzvah DeRabbanan (after originally being DeOraita).
Furthermore, related to some of the specific transgressions of the positive and negative commandments involving Sh'mittah is the biggest "practical" (as opposed to halakhic) difference between Heter Mechira wine and Otzar Beis Din wine: the former has Jews planting new vines and vineyards on Eretz Israel during the Seventh Year. The Nafqa Minah of this would be that no vineyard/winery in Eretz Israel proper using the Otzar Beis Din method of distributing sh'mittah produce/products would have a first, ever possible 2012 release and debut of a new varietal wine (i.e. Zinfandel [only Dalton of the Kosher Israeli wineries has this, at least one that is worthwhile]; Malbec).
One of the biggest differences of the halakhic source between Otzar Beis Din method and Heter Mechira is that the former was instituted by Chaza"l and reestablished by the Chazon Ish (as far as I know), and the latter was created at the establishment of the State of Israel. One important, halakhic fact about Heter Mechira produce/products is that even by the majority Posqim that accept the method as a valid halakhic shittah, they still rule that Heter Mechira produce still carry the laws of Qedushat Sh'vii't and thus need to be treated accordingly by those Jews in possession and/or in contact with it.
Best wishes,
E.Y.
Username : exabgen
Forum Posts : 25
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Tue, 07/28/2009 - 3:53pm | Report Abuse
From what I understand most Rabbi(s) do not respect the heter mechira as Kdushas Shivis, only Oztar Beis Din. I have questions in to the OK, OU, and Star-K, and am waiting for a response from each. I do not honestly hope for much, but I am giving it my best :-)
David
Username : David Raccah
Forum Posts : 23
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Tue, 07/28/2009 - 4:58pm | Report Abuse
I'm sure that most stam Rabbis who accept Heter Mechira do not see it as Kedushat Sh'vii't, but apparently the majority of Posqim who accept Heter Mechira pasqin as such. . . Even if you look on the old labels of Carmel Mizrachi 2001 777 Brandy and various wines from that vintage it says "Yivul Sh'vii't ap"y Heter Mechira." It is true that the far majority of Heter Mechira products in the supermarket have said in the past "lo chashash Sh'vii't, etc. . .," but in the past Sh'mitta year the labeling and heksher specifications of many Heter Mechira products have seen a number of chiddushim in their specificity, and for this many of the makpidim and machmirim have been more thankful for the increased clarity in many situations
Username : exabgen
Forum Posts : 25
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Sun, 08/02/2009 - 12:20pm | Report Abuse
David,you've got to be kidding! This is a very interesting discussion which could easily become political due to your last "smiley" comment that the Golan is "not part of Israel." For someone well versed in rabbinical procedure, I am surprised that you so readily disregard the Biblical boundaries of Israel which make it clearly evident that the Golan IS part of the land of Israel. The great wines alone should inspire Israelis to keep their ancient inheritance!
Username : doctordog
Forum Posts : 18
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Sun, 08/02/2009 - 2:27pm | Report Abuse
Dr Dog, Hi...
I won't go into the politics of the matter here but I will enter into the fields of history and geography.
Many of the ancient maps show that large parts of Syria, Lebanon and Jordan are also an integral part of ancient Israel. Would you have us claim those as our own today? Some might think that in at least certain areas the lease has expired.
I can assure you for example that the members of the Munsee and Unami tribes also believe that God granted them dominion over the lands including the State of Delaware and the Island of Manhattan. I doubt that for the most part the members of of those tribes consider themselves the rightful owners of Rockefeller Plaza or the city of Dover. I also believe that we will find a remarkable resemblance between the God of the Munsee and Unami as to our own Judeo-Christian God.
Best
Rogov
Username : Daniel Rogov
Forum Posts : 32
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Sun, 08/02/2009 - 8:30pm | Report Abuse
Yes, Rogov...
I understand where you're coming from. I do agree with you...and with the Bibi school of thought regarding contemporary territorial boundaries. Even Yitshak Shamir didn't support the idea of Greater Israel. Let the Messiah handle that problem.
Nonetheless, Israel won the strategically important Golan in battle and has held it since '67. That is two-thirds of the number of years that Israel has been a State....and twice as long as the amount of time it was run by Syria.
It would be unfortunate to abet the enemies of Israel by handing over a launching pad for their missiles. There is no need to rush to give it up. Such a decision should come only if there is some reciprocity from the other side. The fiasco in Gaza is proof enough that Israel's "peace partners" aren't really that keen on making peace.
I do not advocate conquest but, in this case, see annexation of good grape producing territory as a fundamental right of the victor in battle!
Regards,
Dog
Username : doctordog
Forum Posts : 18
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Fri, 08/07/2009 - 8:13am | Report Abuse
Dog my man!
I only talk about the actual biblical law, not about patriotic or geographical boundaries. Sorry, that said, many Rabbis I have spoken with tell me that there are too many arguments around the boundaries, and in the end, unless we are talking about Eilat or Rosh Hapiskah, we are still inside the lines :-)
Again, biblical law here is all I talk about, NO POLITICS!!!!
:-) :-)
David
Username : David Raccah
Forum Posts : 23
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Fri, 08/07/2009 - 9:13am | Report Abuse
Thank you, David.
I am quite content to leave politics out of it and stick with a discussion of biblical law only, which was actually the basis of my point anyway! We're inside the lines and that's what matters.
L'chaim to you, my friend!
Dog
Username : doctordog
Forum Posts : 18
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Fri, 08/07/2009 - 10:06am | Report Abuse
"I do not keep kosher but do care about Shmitah." That is the box I would have checked. I wonder if anyone else would vote this way...
Can you explain a little more about why you feel this way. Shmitah is a kosher concept and I would imagine if you do not keep kosher then shmitah is irrelevant. Can you elaborate a little more about why you feel this way?
Username : Dan
Forum Posts : 44
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Fri, 08/07/2009 - 3:39pm | Report Abuse
I feel that I am really going out on a limb here but I will cast care to the wind and give you, in short, my personal explanation.
Being, for better or worse, an independent thinker, I interpret kosher in a different light... and am, therefore, less bound but not less compelled by my interpretation.... despite the fact that our family descends from some very notable members of the rabbinical line.
I believe that the fence around the Torah, while guarding the holy writ, has encumbered Israel in certain ways by laying too many stringencies upon it. I agree with the general Torah precepts...minus Talmudic restrictions. So, what constitutes kosher to me? ...such basic things as not eating unclean animals, not boiling a kid in it's mother's milk, etc. Abraham served milk and meat to the "angels," did he not? ("And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set [it] before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat." Gen. 18:8.)... I realize the timeline here is pre-Mosaic.
Shmitah. I am very interested, and have great respect for this concept... as I do for Torah and Talmudic law. How then can I say it does not matter to me? I am weighing the various interpretations and trying to decide whether or not to purchase the 2008 shmitah listed on Kosherwine.com. I would really love to try it. Nevertheless, I find it a difficult decision and may refrain because of the simple prohibitions which state that the shmita year is "a sabbath during which you may not plant your fields, nor prune your vineyards. Do not harvest crops that grow on their own and do not gather the grapes on your unpruned vines, since it is a year of rest for the land." I would like to have a deeper knowledge of the stages of harvest and production for the 2008 shmita wine so that I can make a more informed decision.
David Raccah's link (http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/727996/Rabbi_Yuval_Cherlow/T... ) is most enlightening. It examines the enormity of the problem and comes to no definitive solution. This is complicated business.
So, yes, while I do not keep kosher in the traditional sense, I do care (a lot) about shmita.
Username : doctordog
Forum Posts : 18
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Sat, 08/08/2009 - 5:09pm | Report Abuse
bsd
Doctordog shalom,
It sounds that if you have a problem with what you call "Talmudic/Rabbinic restrictions," then you probably in all consistency would also be against Rabbinic permissions. In something like Otzar Beis Din when done "completely correctly," am I right in such a thought?
Best wishes,
E.Y.
Username : exabgen
Forum Posts : 25
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Sat, 08/08/2009 - 9:54pm | Report Abuse
Yes, E.Y.
I disagree with the temporary sale of land as a loophole for shmita production. I believe that the heart of the Torah precept regarding shmita is that all soil in the Land of Israel should rest....a sabbath for the earth. I would not agree with Otzar Beis Din, even when done "completely correctly" because while it is very humanitarian it, in my humble opinion, breaks the primary precept commanding people to let the land rest.
Unfortunately Israel no longer has the produce of Gush Katif available. Greenhouse and hydroponic farming are very important in easing the problems of shmita observance.
Best regards,
D.D.
Username : doctordog
Forum Posts : 18
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Sun, 08/09/2009 - 12:43pm | Report Abuse
D.D.,
I know for a fact that at least both David Racca and I are also against the sale of land. In fact, this is still a transgression of DeOraita negative commandment. This is what is called Heter Mechira, a modern solution. However, Otzar Beis Din is not a modern method, and only applies to tree fruit, hence becoming much relied on by the majority of the Israeli wineries starting from the 2008 vintage. It makes the --local-- farm/vineyard land and it's produce a part of a collective ownership. In fact, the Gadol, may he rest in peace, who is responsible for resinstituing the ancient permission now known as Otzar Beis Din is the Chazon Ish, who also held the position that non-Jewish/Arab grown produce/grapes also have Qedushat Sh'vi'it and thus it and it's wine in particular (i.e. Havdalah, Brit Milah, etc.) needs to be treated as such; this is however a minority opinion of the machloqet of religious positions today.
I also agree with you that things like Greenhouse farming are important in easing the problems of sh'mitta observance. In fact, I am somewhat surprised that you would accept the Rabbinic leniency and permission that "Fruits of the Ground"-produce grown in the correct conditions inside greenhouses, disattached from the ground/land is not subject to the agricultural laws of Eretz Israel. I can tell you for a fact that greenhouse produce is alive and well, and it will continue into the next Sh'mitta year in another 6 years :)
Best wishes,
E.Y.
Username : exabgen
Forum Posts : 25
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 1:11am | Report Abuse
I have noticed more and more people in Israel asking about non-Shmitah as wines from that year become prevelant in the market and many look for non-shmitah year substitutes.
I know many winemakers who are frustrated with how Shmitah is regulated and how there is a lot of perceived confusion on how it's enforced by supervising Rabbis (or so several have told me).
It's seems clarity and consistency on the matter would provide a level playing field for the winery and more certainty and less confusion in the marketplace.
Username : David Rhodes
Forum Posts : 35
Location : Israel
David S. Rhodes
052-702-WINE (9463)
wine writer: ESRA magazine Travelujah.com
RustyMikeRadio.com live most Thursday nights at 640PM & available as podcast
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 1:14am | Report Abuse
very informative
totally consuming a bottle probably isn't a problem for most of us reading this site although it coul make it difficult if you were doing a multiple tasting on your own of shmitah wines ( a good excuse to include some friends I guess)
Username : David Rhodes
Forum Posts : 35
Location : Israel
David S. Rhodes
052-702-WINE (9463)
wine writer: ESRA magazine Travelujah.com
RustyMikeRadio.com live most Thursday nights at 640PM & available as podcast
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 2:09am | Report Abuse
It's always interesting when someone with no prior knowledge of kashrut asks about a shmitah wine we don't have (like Golan Moscato for example), and I have to give them a much longer answer than they were expecting.
Username : Scott Shu
Forum Posts : 43
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 2:48am | Report Abuse
A question - rhetorical perhaps:
What percentage of Jews in the United States are concerned with shmitta? That is to say, how many actually care at all about this issue?
Best
Rogov
Username : Daniel Rogov
Forum Posts : 32
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 4:02am | Report Abuse
A question - rhetorical perhaps:
What percentage of Jews in the United States are concerned with shmitta? That is to say, how many actually care at all about this issue?
From my experience of observant Jews in the U.S., I am estimating the following percentages:
observant Conservative (a.k.a. "Conservadox"): give or take 98% accept heter mechira; 80+% don't care and/or go ahead and purchase/drink Israeli non-Kosher wine, hence not being so concerned with the other main agricultural, positive commandments
sephardic Traditional: around 80-90+% accept heter mechira, at least in personal practice; 40-80+% go ahead and at least dirnk Israeli non-Kosher wine
modern Orthodox: give or take, somewhere more than 50% accept heter mechira, at least in practice; at least 15% go ahead and at least drink Israeli non-Kosher wine
chassidic ultra-Orthodox: 98+% reject heter mechira; 70-80+% avoid Otzar Beis Din
yeshivish ultra-Orthodox: in practice less than 98% reject heter mechira; 65-70+% avoid Otzar Beis Din (this last estimation is very iffy, that's why I would be really interested in receiving the data of a much more honed, much more distributed version of this forum's survey for sh'mitta observance)
I'm interested in number corrections to these estimations.
Username : exabgen
Forum Posts : 25
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 4:09am | Report Abuse
At the beginning of the past Sh'mitta year (early Fall, 2007), there was a (cover?) story in the New York Times that made big headlines all around about heter mechira and observance of Sh'mitta of the land for the Seventh year. I never got to read entire content's of the article myself, but what I heard is that it quoted a man (Arab?; also photo who gesture?) saying something like: "They think they can fool G-d, etc. . ."
Username : exabgen
Forum Posts : 25
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 4:44am | Report Abuse
I think what is pertinent is that for those who it is important it is very important and that producers of Kosher wines generally make attempts to make a product as inclusive to the practices and beliefs of as many Jews as possible.
it's definitely one of the kashrut specifications that ire winemakers the most and many wine consumers who don't care about Shmitah would also be more likely not to care about kashrut at all making the whole argument moot since non-kosher Israeli wines don't make any attempt to comply with Shmitah that I'm aware of
but it would an interesting number if anyone cared enough to survey (is the Forward listening?)
Username : David Rhodes
Forum Posts : 35
Location : Israel
David S. Rhodes
052-702-WINE (9463)
wine writer: ESRA magazine Travelujah.com
RustyMikeRadio.com live most Thursday nights at 640PM & available as podcast
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 7:24am | Report Abuse
It is possible that Heter Mechira is inclusive of the vineyards that the non-kosher Israeli wineries rely on. Furthermore, all Seventh year produce is exempt from Trumot and Ma'aser. Heter Mechira wineries make absolutely no change in their operations for Seventh year, except for a change in their heksher and perhaps also mashgichim (e.g. Carmel Winery in non-Shmitta years has a stark Rav Rubin heksher [Carmel starting from the past Sh'mitta year is no longer Hecher Mechira]).
Username : exabgen
Forum Posts : 25
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 8:11am | Report Abuse
Sorry guys, but you're not answer the question which was: "What percentage of Jews in the United States are concerned with shmitta?"
Breaking down into truly orthodox, modern orthodox, conservative and ultra-orthodox does not give us any idea of percentages of the overall group because certainly three of those categories and the category of students in yeshivot and cohelim are a small percentage of American Jews overall. And, of course, you have left out the reform and other movements.
The question stands - "what percentage of Jews in the United States are concerned with shmitta?" My guess - somewhere about 10=15% of the total Jewish population. And it raises another interesting issue as well: "How many American Jews keep kashrut both in and outside of their homes?"
Ye faithful curmudgeon
Rogov
Username : Daniel Rogov
Forum Posts : 32
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 12:18pm | Report Abuse
DR,
Sorry for not answering your question, I originally thought I was. I think a more valid question when you bring up the issue of sh'mitta has the Land of Israel and its produce as it's focus. So, could you please let me restate your question (even though you clarified how broad you wanted it to be) to say: "What percentage of Jews who buy and drink Israeli wine in the United States are concerned with sh'mitta?" This formulation of the question would be much inclusive of all those who identify as being U.S. residents and Jewish in ethnicity, while also retaining the relevant market-consumer bracket.
Best wishes,
E.Y.
Username : exabgen
Forum Posts : 25
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 12:30pm | Report Abuse
What percentage of Jews who buy and drink Israeli wine in the United States are concerned with sh'mitta?"
Eugen,Hi....
Consider my question so re-stated.
Username : Daniel Rogov
Forum Posts : 32
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 2:55pm | Report Abuse
The shmitah question raises a larger question as well "why are some Israeli wineries kosher and some are not and what is the real reason for Israeli wineries who are kosher to be kosher"
If an Israeli winery's motivation to be kosher is only commercial then the % of America Jews who care about shmitah is important if however it is because of a desire for their wine to observant of all relevant kashhrut or even to be a product relevant and inclusive of all possible Jews who might want to drink it then I think the question is irrelevant and a bit cynical.
However, even though someone might not follow shmitah it doesn't mean that they might not graduate to it at a future date. The trend of observance among Kosher Jews might be more significant than the overall #.
I can't imagine Kosher wineries would disappear if kashrut observance dropped in half. It might make non-kosher wineries more viable but there are wineries who see world Jewry as their main segment of interest and don't want to exclude any significant sectors out of financial concerns and I also hope for many a unifying cause among Jews.
If fear of assimilation is a primary reason for kosher wine to exist as such then shouldn't kosher wine be a source of unification among Jews.
I don't know if anyone really has any tangible answers on this and there seems to be a lot of conjecture but it's a surely intersting discussion
David Rhodes
Username : David Rhodes
Forum Posts : 35
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 4:28pm | Report Abuse
..."why are some Israeli wineries kosher and some are not and what is the real reason for Israeli wineries who are kosher to be kosher"
I think I can respond to that.....
1. The large and medium-sized wineries in Israel are kosher because without kashrut they cannot sell their wines in the major supermarket chains and those all insist on all kosher products. More than that, some 60-70% of all wines in Israel are sold in supermarkets.
2. Some small wineries are kosher because their owners (and often owner/winemaker) are observant and thus maintain kashrut out of belief.
3. Other small wineries are kosher because they believe (rightly or wrongly) that the production of wines that are kosher will increase their sales within Israel and, more importantly, will be their entree into the North American wine market.
Best
Rogov
Username : Daniel Rogov
Forum Posts : 32
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 6:47pm | Report Abuse
This thread is now moving into areas not realted totally to shmita. I will just recap:
1) Heter Mechira will be drunk just fine by MANY in the modern orthodox community, ecspecially if they have close Israel ties. Anything more (black hat Young Israel -> Agudat Yisroel), will not touch the stuff, myself included, no matter how much it pains me! Unless, by accident like I did once this past week.
2) Oztar Beit Din is a different beast, and would be consumed by many in the Agudat Yisroel, but not by the chaddish groups and just to be safe, neither will the yeshiva crowd.
Again, I strongly feel, that the importers are the one who make the transgression of Oztar Beit Din, and consumers of said imported stuff are free of issue, which is WHY the OK/OU will NEVER give a hechsher on the bottles. The OK/OU are not giving their hecsher on the bottling and pressing and crushing, what they are giving their hecsher on is whether you can buy it. They will never give that hecsher so long as it is not permissible to export.
This is what I have gleaned so far and recapped. Still chasing down rabbis, but having spoken with enough of them now, this seems to be the almost offical stance.....
David
Username : David Raccah
Forum Posts : 23
Location : United States
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 8:16pm | Report Abuse
ah but there are some small wineries who aren't kosher out of certain principles as well
for instance Margalit
Assaf has told me that he and father believe that they'll probably never be kosher for two reasons
1st) they are not observant and they don't wished to be distanced from their passion of winemaking by another person handling the wine
2nd) they believe that to become kosher that they woud be admitting that in some way a sabbath observant Jew is better than them and they firmly believe that even though there might be economic reasons to make the change they'd rather go as long as they can without
it's hard to argue that it's affected their success as winemakers though Assaf said it would difficult for them to expand significantly without considering the marketing advantages, one reason to not grow past their 20,000 bottles a year and to rather rely a lot on their roles as mentors and consultants to other wineries is so they can subsist on 20,000 bottles and defiantly NOT be kosher
Username : David Rhodes
Forum Posts : 35
Location : Israel
Re: Does Shmitah Matter to You?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 8:18pm | Report Abuse
i should have made it clear that I was asking that rhetorically but thanks for the answer anyway
Username : David Rhodes
Forum Posts : 35
Location : Israel